Embracing Equity – What does Inclusion mean for Mental Health Professionals?

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In this ‘In Conversation’ podcast, for International Women’s Day 2023 (8 March), junior doctor and ACAMH Young Person Ambassador Clara Faria is joined by Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh, a Postdoctoral Research Associate within the Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology and Neuroscience, King’s College London, and Dr. Eunice Ayodeji, a child and adolescent mental health nurse and lecturer in Mental Health Nursing at the University of Salford, Manchester, and member of the ACAMH board.

International Women’s Day 2023 has chosen the theme ‘Embrace Equity’. This podcast will celebrate women’s achievements in child and adolescent mental health, as well as explore how we can challenge gender stereotypes, call out discrimination, draw attention to bias, and seek out inclusion.

Discussion points include;

  • What does embracing equity mean?
  • How CAMH researchers and clinicians can actively support and embrace equity in their own sphere of influence
  • How CAMH professionals can embrace equity when it comes to patients
  • What important strides have already been made to embrace equity
  • How we can challenge organisational and cultural barriers
  • Advice on what best supports young women to pursue careers in child and adolescent mental health
  • Recommendations on how we, as a society, can embrace equity in research, work, and our everyday to work collectively to impact positive change

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Clara Faria
Clara Faria

Clara is a junior doctor and aspiring child and adolescent psychiatrist. She currently serves as a Young Person Ambassador for ACAMH and is interested in eating disorders and in the epidemiology of mental health disorders in young people.

Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh
Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh

Yasmin is a Postdoctoral Research Associate at the Social, Genetic and Developmental Psychiatry (SGDP) centre, within the Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology and Neuroscience (IoPPN), King’s College London. Yasmin specialises in genetically informed methods to examine how mental health concerns run in families. Her research interests include anxiety, depression, family relationships, and anti-racism in mental health research. Yasmin is Principal Investigator on the Transmission of experiences of Racism, Anxiety and DEpression in families (TRADE) project, in partnership with the charity Centre for Mental Health. Here, Yasmin’s team explore the intergenerational consequences of racism in families in the UK. Yasmin previously worked as a Research Assistant setting up and managing the Children of the Twins Early Development Study (CoTEDS), which is a longitudinal, second-generation twin study. Yasmin has a BSc in Neuroscience with Industrial/Professional Experience from the University of Manchester.

Dr. Eunice Ayodeji
Dr. Eunice Ayodeji

Eunice teaches on the pre-registration and post-qualifying nursing programmes as a lecturer at the University of Salford. She has a keen interest in Nurse Education. Alongside teaching, Eunice is also a Child and Adolescent Mental Health Nurse who currently works as a Trauma Therapist predominately with looked after children and with Team Around Schools in a community CAMHS team in the Northwest (Greater Manchester Mental Health Trust). She has extensive therapeutic experience in a wide range of CAMHS settings, including inpatients, forensic inpatient, community, educational, social care and therapeutic residential contexts. As nurses are the largest professional group within CAMHS, Eunice is keen to identify child & adolescent mental health-specific gaps in nurse training. Eunice was Child & Adolescent Mental Health Nurse committee member for NICE (2019), responsible for updating guidelines for the management and treatment of depression in children & young people. Eunice has a keen interest in equality and diversity issues, specifically equal and timely access to CAMHS for racially minoritized groups, and developmental trauma and self-harm.

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[00:00:09.515] Clara Faria: Hello, welcome to the In Conversation podcast series for the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health or ACAMH for short. I’m Clara Faria, a junior doctor from Brazil with an interest in eating disorders research and one of ACAMH’s Young Person’s Ambassadors. March 8 is International Women’s Day, a global day celebrating the achievements of women, and also a call for positive change in gender equality. Today, we will be celebrating women’s achievements in child and adolescent mental health as well as explore how we can challenge gender stereotypes, call out discrimination, draw attention to bias, and seek out inclusion.

I have with me Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh, a postdoctoral research associate at the Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology, and Neuroscience at King’s College London, and Dr. Eunice Ayodeji, a child and adolescent mental health nurse and lecturer in mental health nursing at the University of Salford, Manchester, and a member of the ACAMH board. If you are a fan, please subscribe on your preferred streaming platform so you can let us know how we did with a rating or review and do share with friends and colleagues.

Welcome, everyone. Can you please start with an introduction.

[00:01:18.665] Dr. Eunice Ayodeji: I’m Eunice Ayodeji. So, I work predominantly in a CAMH service, child adolescent mental health service, in the Northwest of England. Mainly, I work therapeutically using trauma-focused interventions for care experience children. So, I’m a trauma therapist. And I also work at the University of Salford as a nurse academic working with post qualifying nurses, thinking about child and adolescent mental health and strategies to support young people experiencing mental health distress.

[00:01:50.930] Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh: I’m Yasmin Ahmadzadeh, and I’m an early career researcher. I finished my PhD just over two years ago at King’s College London in the social genetic and developmental psychiatry center, which is where I still work now as a postdoc. And I research mental health in families across generations, so trying to unpick how parents and children become similar in their mental health.

[00:02:14.185] Clara Faria: Thank you so much for your introductions. International Women’s Day is a global day celebrating the social, economic, cultural, and political achievements of women. Now, in its 111th year, International Women’s Day 2023 has chosen the theme of ‘Embrace Equity’. Can you tell us a bit more about what embracing equity means to you, Yasmin?

[00:02:35.210] Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh: I really like this theme because it’s about ensuring everybody has equal opportunities. And I went to a talk last week by Professor Camara Jones, and she was listing three steps that you need to achieve this equity. So, she was saying, first, you need to value all individuals and populations equally, and then recognize and rectify historical injustice, and then provide resources according to need.

So, it’s so much more than just ensuring our spaces are diverse. It’s not just about having some women at the table or on your panel. It’s about valuing all women equally, so across all intersecting identities, Black and Brown women, women with disabilities, LGBTQ plus women, and religious women. And then acknowledging the barriers that have stood in their way as a result of our histories and society, and that leads us to understand that different groups will need more or less support to achieve equity. So, it’s not just one size fits all. It’s really bringing this nuance to the conversation and our actions.

[00:03:37.595] Clara Faria: Eunice, could you tell us a bit more about what embracing equity means to you as well.

[00:03:42.590] Dr. Eunice Ayodeji: It’s about recognizing that we all have different circumstances and we come from different backgrounds. It’s very easy to think about equality because it’s something we can speak about gender equality. It doesn’t mean we have to have difficult conversations, but equity is something a bit more proactive, and it’s just really looking at those intersections of disadvantage that some women do have multiple social disadvantage identities in relation to ethnicity, sexuality, and disability, and thinking about how those intersections contribute to that woman’s lived experience.

And in terms of embracing and actually listening to the individual’s lived experience and thinking about how that intersects with their current experience and how that’s informing, embracing it also means a difficult conversation. The first step is identifying that there is hierarchies of privilege and I guess, as a sisterhood, acknowledging that we’re all coming from different positions and how we can support each other. We don’t live in a vacuum, and we’re all interconnected, and it really impacts on us all.

[00:04:53.615] Clara Faria: With these concepts of equity in mind, how do you believe CAMH researchers and clinicians can actively support and embrace equity within their own sphere of influence?

[00:05:03.965] Dr. Eunice Ayodeji: I mean, it’s a really big thing to try and think about influencing it because it’s a society level, and it’s really thinking about that it requires a lot of perseverance because it’s not going to go away any time soon. But to create any types of change, I guess some of it is that we do need to identify and acknowledge that we live in a society that equity is not evident for some. And it’s just about for the women such as myself who do have a privileged position in terms of being on the ACAMH board, being an academic, being a senior therapist, it’s about really acknowledging that privilege despite the intersection that I experience being perhaps a role model representing other women, thinking about how I can be a mentor to other women, do positive mentorship schemes, which can be helpful, and being an ally and thinking about how I can use the platforms that I have to raise awareness in relation to this issue.

[00:06:05.560] Clara Faria: Thank you for your super complete answer, Eunice. As very, very early career researcher myself, I can say that it’s really, really inspiring when we find women like you in positions of leadership and providing mentorship to us. It really makes us think it’s possible to get in those positions, for example, in the ACAMH board. It’s really inspiring to see the success of other women. And, Yasmin?

[00:06:29.695] Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh: Yeah, I completely agree with everything that Eunice was saying. And maybe for a more junior perspective, something that I’ve really learnt recently is that everyone at every level can make really active decisions that have influence, even if it’s at a very local level. So, thinking about who you choose to work with and what populations you choose to make research for and what research questions you’re deciding to focus on, what you write your papers on, it’s where you direct your efforts and your ideas and your time and your capacity, and you are the person in charge of that.

So yeah, just thinking that everyone has individual impact and responsibility, I guess, men are just less active in their allyship for women across all spaces. So, we’re talking to you, men. But also, women being active for other women, so you might be successful in your space alongside other women but asking who is missing and who are you helping or not helping and how can you change that.

And I think that relates to one reason why I decided to join the University College Union or the UCU strike action, because that’s one way that I found that I could stand up against inequality or inequity in our field, which is the same as colleagues in the NHS are doing. Because the people who are at the bottom who are hit hardest by inequality and unfair systems that we work in, they’re going to include more women, and more women from minoritized racial and ethnic groups, more women with disabilities.

We know that gender and ethnicity pay gaps remain in our structures. And as long as that’s the case, I think we all need to be challenging the system and using the structures that are out there for us to challenge that inequity.

[00:08:09.400] Clara Faria: I think the fact that you are joining UCU’s strikes is also really inspiring to your students, to the students you mentor, for example, under the TRADE project. So, they can see that they have rights and they should speak up when those rights are not being met by the current pay conditions. So, thank you for that answer, Yasmin. And turning back to Eunice now, with a number of research papers having been published on gender differences in mental health care and mental health conditions.

How do you think CAMH professionals can embrace equity when it comes to patients?

[00:08:41.305] Dr. Eunice Ayodeji: It’s a really difficult questions, quite complex, and I guess some of it is that just to recognize that mental illness occurs within social and environmental contexts and also thinking about how– and clinicians really need to be aware of the young person’s background. And recognize that just like adults, young people have multiple socially disadvantaged or advantaged identities and speaking to that.

And I think some of the way that we can embrace it is actually acknowledging it for the young person because often it’s the first time it’s been acknowledged and thinking about how their intersection in terms of class, ethnicity, religion, gender has contributed to not only to the development of the mental health condition but also in terms of how they access treatment or the pathway to treatment. These are all really important.

So, we know that some communities are unable to access treatment for lots of different reasons. And we know some groups are able to access treatments more readily. And also thinking about embracing that from a clinical perspective, thinking about how the intersections and the disadvantaged identities can influence treatment outcome and the therapeutic kind of relationship as well is really important.

And thinking about all those things and including that in the formulation of understanding why the young person is at the place that they are in terms of the mental health problem. And that’s really powerful in a psychoeducation sense that it helps to support them think about why they’re developing the mental health problem. And I think some of it as well is actually thinking about evidence-based practice, looking at some of the statistics.

So for example, we know that some ethnic groups, racial groups, gender groups, they may have higher levels of mental health distress, but they actually don’t access services. And we need to think about what the reasons for that is. Is there something we can do about service provision? Do we need to be more active, assertive in addressing some of these problems? So there’s lots of things we can do both at an individual level and perhaps also in terms of a service level.

[00:11:02.800] Clara Faria: Turning to your own experience as a child and adolescent mental health nurse, Eunice, and also as an academic and researcher, do you think that important strides have been made to embrace equity? And how do you think we can challenge organizational and cultural barriers to embrace equity?

[00:11:20.905] Dr. Eunice Ayodeji: It’s really, really difficult because despite lots of effort to try to make things much more inclusive for women from all background, we know that some groups have made strides in terms of career progression and lots of positive things, but that’s not the same for other groups. So, what we need to think about is what we’ve said before. The first step is actually identifying that there is a problem that certain groups are not at the table.

And we need to ask why that is. And I think that is being asked more and more. So, if you’re in a room and you’re the only one from your background, I’m quite a mature clinician, and in the past I would never ask that. But I notice with the younger clinicians are asking that much more. And I think in terms of organization level, having mentors, positive mentors, again having role models who reflect the diversity of the area that you’re working in, thinking about the interview process, having a diverse interview panel.

And I think some of it is about organizations and the individual having the courage to speak out and having a zero-tolerance policy in terms of discrimination attitudes. Some women, certain groups of women perhaps don’t feel entitled or privileged to apply for promotion, not that the opportunities are not there. The opportunity is there, but actually often they don’t feel like that they can apply because they don’t see anybody else reflected on the senior level like themselves.

They don’t have the confidence. And often, at an organization level all it takes is for instead of sending an email around and saying this is this come and apply, it’s actually approaching people and saying, this has come up. Why don’t you apply, Clara? This is perfect for you. You could do that. You’ve been doing this for a long time. You can apply. And often, that’s all it takes them to apply, just someone saying, would you please apply for this, and I’d support you to apply.

[00:13:22.652] Clara Faria: Thank you for your answer, Eunice. That was very inspiring to hear. And the same question to you, Yasmin, but in your perspective as an early career researcher, how do you think we can challenge organizational and cultural barriers to embrace equity?

[00:13:36.915] Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh: Following what Eunice has said that for some women in some fields, like the department where I work, many women have overcome gender-related barriers in their careers, and they have been successful and then are leaders in their fields where before men dominated much more. But there’s still just massive lack of diversity among these women in terms of race and ethnicity and wealth.

And there’s still a gender pay gap at our university. And I think it’s helpful to maybe explain what that means because I didn’t always understand what that meant. It’s basically the difference between men and women’s average pay across a whole organization. It’s the extent to which men and women are proportionally represented in different roles at different pay levels. It encapsulates issues around equal pay, which is comparing men and women in the same roles to how much they’re paid, which isn’t always the same.

It’s linked to what Eunice was saying about who applies for promotion, who gets promoted, who is in the higher and lower power levels of work in our organization. Also, it’s about who gets bonuses each year. So, it’s not just about salary pay. So, at King’s where I work, in 2021, there was a 15% pay difference between men and women and a 19% ethnicity pay gap, which hasn’t been improving year on year.

So, it shows that the gender pay gap is worse for women who are also affected by the ethnicity pay gap. And also, thinking about career progression from my perspective as an early career researcher, there’s the issue of if I wanted to start a family and thinking about taking a significant period of time off work during this, what feels like, quite crucial period for my career.

And I don’t think that’s really openly talked about for women who haven’t yet had children. And I know it’s a whole new kettle of fish once you do have children and have childcare responsibilities. And maybe also an imbalance in the unrecognized roles that women play at work, so who organizes the talk and books the room and sends the circulates and buys the leaving gift and hands out the coffees?

These sound really basic, but there’s still definitely gender differences in who takes up these roles at work. And I think also there was a really nice point made last year on the ACAMH panel about the imbalance in which fields women dominate in, so generally more related to social topics and care in the mental health sphere. So there’s so many layers to these gender imbalances that we have to still tackle. And I think that’s why our comments about everyone needing to be involved in actively challenging them is still more pertinent than ever.

[00:16:05.960] Clara Faria: Yes, you’ve mentioned the panel last year and your response about gendered roles in academia reminded me of Kathy Sylva’s answer. And I remember she said that when she was an early career researcher, they wanted to put her on the panel for the university’s organizing event committee, and she said, but I don’t want to be on that committee. I don’t want to be organizing events and buying leave cards and doing that.

I want to be on the publications committee. Until today, your response made me reflect a lot about how those roles are more gendered than we realize. So, thank you for that. Moving on, this time last year, ACAMH hosted an event on ‘Breaking the Bias: Celebrating Women in CAMH’, which is the panel Yasmin and I mentioned. And the panel’s aim was to celebrate women’s achievements in CAMH and also to explore some of the challenges women face in CAMH professions. Looking back, do you think, Yasmin, anything has changed with regarding to breaking biases and embracing equity? And how can people improve upon this?

[00:17:07.827] Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh: I think it’s really hard to tell on a big scale. I don’t really have oversight of what has changed on a big level. It’s slow, progress is slow, and it takes time. We’ve been talking about these same things for decades. So it’s not going to change in a year, and we have to keep having these conversations unfortunately. Some things that have happened this year, we have one more Black female professor in the UK.

So Professor Morris at the University of Leeds I think has become around the 56th Black women professor out of a total of over 23,000 Black professors in the UK by relative understanding. On a smaller scale, it’s easier for us to see the things that change around us. So for example, in my work, I’ve been working on the Transmission of Experiences of Racism, Anxiety, and Depression in families, otherwise known as the TRADE project.

And we’re a team of researchers who have lived experience of racism affecting our families. And I’ve worked with some amazing inspiring young women on that project who were undergraduate students and masters students at the time who’ve now decided to go on and pursue research jobs and further training to join our field. And I think that’s really exciting. Even if I just know a handful of young women who really care about making a difference and doing things differently who enjoyed working in research and have decided to stay, then that’s good enough progress from my tiny perspective for the past year. Well, maybe not good enough, but it’s good.

[00:18:37.820] Dr. Eunice Ayodeji: Yeah, thanks for that, Yasmin. Yeah, it’s– a year is very short to measure this sort of change, but there is some small changes. And I think for me as been around for quite a long time, these kind of things were never talked about. So, it’s great that it’s been brought to table and younger women expect it to be spoken about equity and equality and all these things that we never– we just took for granted that we would be discriminated against.

It was something that you just accepted, but it’s great to see younger researchers, younger clinicians actually not accepting that and challenging it. I mean, for example, something that’s happened, I think, it was only last week. So, a senior nurse who identifies as Black who works for Health Education England. I mean, she brought a case for racial discrimination and bias against Health Education England, the organization that she works for.

And her role was to reduce racial discrimination bias, but she was being discriminated against. She brought a case against them, and she actually won. It’s something that, I mean, it’s a landmark case because it doesn’t happen usually. So it’s something that people are thinking about. So I guess for other women to see that actually you can bring a case against a large organization and win, that’s massive really.

So people, I think, women, clinicians, researchers are having much more courage in speaking about these things, challenging things, and getting support from each other to challenge the status quo. So, things are changing slowly, but I guess it’s not as fast as we would like. What we can do to accelerate that change is just have it as a standard agenda item all the time, so it’s always talked about is acknowledging that these structural inequalities they are real barriers that impact on women in different ways that interplay in different ways.

And they’re very, very complex, and we need to acknowledging it, validating it, giving it space is really, really important. And I think that’s the first step.

[00:20:48.102] Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh: Can I add something to that? Because I was thinking while you were speaking, Eunice, that it’s also just we’re speaking from a British perspective. But it’s so different in different countries with colleagues of different nationalities and in different contexts. And in research, especially we work quite internationally sometimes, and it can be quite shocking to realize that the level that we’re at in our gender conversation here can be completely different in other countries, even, like, in Europe, in very close by places.

So I think we can learn from one another internationally as well because we’re at different places in our journeys. And so we can share our learning more broadly as well.

[00:21:27.775] Clara Faria: Thank you both for your fantastic answers. And just to add on to something you both said, I definitely think the conversation is more advanced in the UK compared to what it is in Brazil, for example. That’s the only country I can speak of from my own experience. I do think it’s helpful that some institutions are aware of this and are trying to change it. So for example, I know that in King’s, you have a program for accelerating the careers of women, and the rules for promotion are more clear, and there is some incentive despite the gap that you mentioned, Yasmin, which I– and there is data on that.

For example, in Brazil, I don’t think many institutions do this type of research and raise data on the gender pay gap. But definitely, I’m just trying to be positive. As Eunice was saying, even in the UK, we still have lots to fight for and lots to achieve yet. Carrying on, so in your experience, what do you think best supports women to pursue careers in child and adolescent mental health? And is there any advice that you wish you had known before you started in this career path as a young woman?

[00:22:34.580] Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh: As a researcher, I wish that I had some empirical research to answer this question because I can only really answer based on my own perspective, which is very much anecdotal level. But I had loads of privileges that have supported me to get to the position that I’m currently in. I grew up in London. My family are well-off. I’ve had good health.

I know that this has given me a disproportionate step up, and those shouldn’t be the factors that support women to pursue careers in mental health research. But on the flip side, I’m the first woman in my family to work in academia and to get a PhD. So, something has changed for the better to support me to be here. So, I’ve had amazing science education at school, I’ve had supported colleagues and role models, I’ve had access to meeting with successful women who give me advice.

And I feel a sense of belonging in community and respect where I work. Like, I’ve got a space in the room. So those things have– when I think about my journey, there have been things that have unfairly supported me to get to where I am and also things that have been done that are amazing in the place where I work that have supported me to stay. I guess the advice that I would give to young women is that we all have a space in the room that it doesn’t make sense that only really senior experienced people should be the ones leading the conversation because then it’s biased.

So we all bring something and have a role to play and also exert our influence on structures. So I often think about imposter syndrome for people starting out in their careers and think about the flip side of the argument in that. If you don’t feel like you belong in the space that you’re trying to work in, that you are qualified to work in because you’ve got in, then there’s something wrong with the space.

It’s not something wrong with you. So just thinking about what we are owed from the jobs that we decide to contribute to. I also don’t have children. So, I’m aware that there’s a whole new career challenge awaiting me if I do, which I don’t feel I can comment on yet, but it does feel daunting.

[00:24:32.713] Dr. Eunice Ayodeji: So just picking up what Yasmin said, and I was really thinking of this imposter syndrome. And I just wish that somebody told me when I first started off, especially in academia when I was– first started at the university because it’s what I had or have still. It’s really hard to get rid of really, really is, feeling unqualified for the job sometimes, feeling isolated sometimes the perception of being less deserving despite my experience. And I think it’s really important to think about as a young researcher, a young clinician. It’s something that might impact on you.

[00:25:13.720] Clara Faria: Eunice, in your experience, what do you think best supports women to pursue careers in child and adolescent mental health? And my favourite part, is there any advice that you wish you had known before you started in this career path?

[00:25:27.910] Dr. Eunice Ayodeji: It can be done, and there’s lots of women who despite barriers have made a positive contribution to children’s mental health, feel like I’m one of those. I didn’t learn to speak English till I was 9 or 10. I had no spoken English language. And I, I know I speak English OK now. I’ve got a PhD. And what I can say to young women is that the barriers that you see in your way are real, but with the right support they can be overcome.

And what’s helped me is that I’ve been very, very fortunate in terms of people who have supported me who don’t have the same background as me, who have seen my struggles or talked to me. And they’ve supported me in terms of getting my PhD, in terms of writing, in terms of seeing opportunities and saying, Eunice, why don’t you go for that. So, what’s helped me actually is networks that I’ve not created because I think sometimes when you don’t come from a privileged position, you can’t create them yourself because you don’t know what to do.

But it’s about people who have been in my department. And if you want to help somebody is you don’t need to go far. There’ll be somebody in departments, somebody in your institution who you can help. And I’ve been really, really fortunate. The late Professor Richard Harrington, who was a chair of Child Psychiatry Manchester, he encouraged me to do my PhD, somebody who is from a totally different background to myself.

And he was instrumental in starting me out. So, I would say, seek support, talk about the experience. And I think in terms of pursuing this career, it’s very, very difficult. It’s emotional labour in terms of working with these young people. But you’ve got to be passionate about the outcomes of children and young people who are experiencing emotional distress. And also, I think looking after yourself and looking after your colleagues because it’s difficult work, but if you can do all those things, then you’ll be OK. And another thing is just if you can find an interest, a specialism, try and do it as soon as possible instead of being a generalist.

[00:27:36.698] Clara Faria: Thank you so much. We’re reaching the end of our podcast. Thank you for joining us. And before you go, do you have any takeaway messages for those listening on how we, as a society, can embrace equity in research, work and our everyday life so we can work collectively to impact positive change?

[00:27:54.825] Dr. Eunice Ayodeji: I guess what Yasmin and I have said collectively is about perseverance. It’s a long, hard struggle, but we impact the lives of those who come in behind us and also the impacts in the lives of people in different countries who can see that things can change in terms of using our voice, our power, our privilege, and our platforms that we have to raise awareness of all these issues, giving space and voices to those women who feel like they don’t have the space or they feel like they don’t have a voice, making sure that we exercise the voice as a muscle we need to use it every day and really just speak up because if we don’t speak up and challenge, we don’t wait for somebody else to do it for us.

And if you’re the only one in the room, try and find somebody else. Take them with you. I can’t overestimate the importance of speaking up, finding allies, finding mentors, being that person who represents other people who want to be at the table. Role models, really, really important. And if you have that, use it wisely to support others.

[00:29:11.805] Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh: I really agree with you, Eunice. I was thinking lots of the same things about how everyone can– has to continue to be active in enabling equity. And for people in more privileged positions, don’t value your time more than other people’s because everyone’s busy. Choose to use your time to do something to improve the situation. And I think that’s maybe quite a gendered things. So I invite men to be more altruistic with your time and capacity and energy. Yeah, and difference and inaction in the face of inequality is a hallmark of sexism and racism and ableism. So we all need to challenge that and not be complicit and complacent.

[00:29:51.240] Clara Faria: Yasmin and Eunice, thank you so much. I was really inspired and really taken aback by many of your answers. And it was lovely having you here. For more details on Dr. Yasmin Ahmadzadeh and Dr. Eunice Ayodeji, please visit the ACAMH website, www.acamh.org, and our Twitter, @acamh. And don’t forget to follow us on your preferred streaming platform. Let us know if you enjoyed the podcast with a rating or a review and do share with your friends and colleagues. Yasmin and Eunice, thank you once again for being with us here today.

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